Charmed Debates

[Quiet Desperation]

About the first debate, I also would have preffered Melinda. I thought she had more potential than Wyatt, and I saw her in one episode, as opossed to Wyatt. I didn't really care about the "twice blessed child" that much, also. It would've been great for Piper to say something (after the episode of the birth), maybe she's a little dissapointed about Melinda, the girl she expected ever since she went to the future (ot at least since she got pregnant), not being born.

I agree with Rory, aswell, keeping all of the Halliwell line females definitley doesn't have a flaw, at all. So, that idea should've been kept, because it represtents Halliwell women, that and being witches, haha.

So yeah, Melinda instead of Wyatt.

Now, to reply to Atlan's debate. That's an odd debate, haha. Killing someone, most propably for life but kiddnapping, not really, no. As for the ultimate battle, both sides wanted to attack, that doesn't completely make it self-defense, IMO.

I'd love to knwo what other members' debates.

[atlan]

Apr 21, 2009 7:03:38 GMT Quiet Desperation said:

Now, to reply to Atlan's debate. That's an odd debate, haha. Killing someone, most propably for life but kiddnapping, not really, no. As for the ultimate battle, both sides wanted to attack, that doesn't completely make it self-defense, IMO.

I'd love to knwo what other members' debates.

Actually treating the Jenkins as humans they broke into the manor and tried to kill the Halliwells. Legally if things were done with guns instead of magic the Halliwells would be totally in the clear due to the right of self defense. The side that breaks in a house with guns is the aggressor. That's the way it works in the US.

As for kidnapping I already said that would be life in prison. My point is again if you judge them as mortal they are guilty of being an accessory to murder and of kidnapping before they try to kill the COs.

[Dark Witch.]

Wow, thinking on the normal side of it, the Jenkins are screwed. Even in Billie was tricked, she would be an accomplice, making her in big...trouble. That totally sucks.

I totally agree with atlan on his points, so i am on his side. hehe.

[Nerf]

I agree that in a normal world they would be imprisoned. However, the Charmed Ones could never get them charged as is. Whatever they did was linked to magic and they could not prove they were guilty without exposing magic and themselves.

As for just vanquishing an evil witch... that's what they were trying to do. At least, Piper was. And Christy was vanquished. But for them to have the.... "right" to vanquish a witch, I think that witch must be truly evil, as Christy was. Billie was not. She was on the fence during the whole ordeal, realized her mistake, and came back to the right side. She was never lost to evil and I think it would have been wrong for the Charmed Ones to vanquish her.

[Reyn]

You guys are lucky, because over here, they wouldn't be imprisoned. Our laws are all about appropriate use of force, and in Australia that means you are only legally allowed to respond with force that is reasonable and proportionate to the immediate need (ie an equal amount of force against any sort of attack). Excessive use of force is illegal, no matter the situation. In a self defence situation in which you are being attacked, your intention when using force must be only to mount an effective defence and you must stop the force once this defence has been effective.

So if someone breaks into your house and you shoot them with a gun (regardless of whether it's self defence), then you are in the wrong, because the force you used was not in proportion to the threat against you. Thus people defending their homes from robbers can and have been arrested, charged and sent to gaol for shooting robbers in their homes, and the robbers have been successful in suing those home owners for damages.

So if this scenario happened here, the Charmed Ones would be in the wrong if they responded with excessive use of force.

[Nerf]

Actually, Tash, I'm pretty sure our systems are basically the same in the respect. I do remember learning that kind of stuff in school, and how you can be arrested for shooting a burglar. But it all depends on the situation.

[atlan]

Apr 22, 2009 4:33:10 GMT Reyn said:

You guys are lucky, because over here, they wouldn't be imprisoned. Our laws are all about appropriate use of force, and in Australia that means you are only legally allowed to respond with force that is reasonable and proportionate to the immediate need (ie an equal amount of force against any sort of attack). Excessive use of force is illegal, no matter the situation. In a self defence situation in which you are being attacked, your intention when using force must be only to mount an effective defence and you must stop the force once this defence has been effective.

So if someone breaks into your house and you shoot them with a gun (regardless of whether it's self defence), then you are in the wrong, because the force you used was not in proportion to the threat against you. Thus people defending their homes from robbers can and have been arrested, charged and sent to gaol for shooting robbers in their homes, and the robbers have been successful in suing those home owners for damages.

So if this scenario happened here, the Charmed Ones would be in the wrong if they responded with excessive use of force.

Only if they moved to Australia and your laws require a home owner to allow an intruder to shoot first. The Jenkins were coming in with lethal force(Christy's pyrokenesis) and AAMOF already tried to kill them that way in Gone With the Witches.

I could understand if someone shot an unarmed burglar and got in trouble but you don't mean if someone comes in your house with a weapon you can only match that weapon? If for instance an axe murder breaks in you should be able to shoot instead of trying to find your own axe. ;D

[atlan]

Dark witch,

Thanks!

Nerf,

I would say that Billie lucked out. The time line change saved her from the consequences of her actions. I wonder if Billie was actually insane. I mean the whole idea of killing the Halliwells for being "selfish" is crazy. Everyone knows(I hope) you just can't kill people you disapprove of.

It would have made more sense if Christy were mind controlling Billie somehow.

[Nerf]

Hmm. Maybe she was controlling her, or at least putting more... "evil" thoughts into her head. She did have telepathy. So that's something interesting to think about.

[Reyn]

Atlan,

You must always respond with an axe here - it's why I have one underneath my pillow at all times. jk

From what I gather, you don't have to respond with the exact same weapon - just one of equal force. So if Alex the Axe Murderer broke into your house and attacked you, you could probably swing a crowbar at his face and still be ok, but they'd get you if you lobbed a grenade at his feet.

[Terry]

Apr 23, 2009 0:39:29 GMT atlan said:

I would say that Billie lucked out. The time line change saved her from the consequences of her actions. I wonder if Billie was actually insane. I mean the whole idea of killing the Halliwells for being "selfish" is crazy. Everyone knows(I hope) you just can't kill people you disapprove of.

It would have made more sense if Christy were mind controlling Billie somehow.

Of course you don't just usually kill people you disapprove of; but the story is different when said people are the prophecised most powerful witches of the world and their selfishness could cause the end of said world.

I don't think Christy manipulated Billie magically, the right words would do the trick, especially when Billie was first introduced to the sisters when they were avoiding the fight.

[Deleted]

I agree totally. I didn't think she was insane at all. She had seen how they just used their magic for their own personal use and now expected her to do their jobs of fighting evil, not them, and how only by having Leo frozen would they agree to use their powers the way their powers were meant to be used.

The most powerful witches ever whose powers had gone to their heads could be very dangerous. I can easily see how her sister, whom she loved and whom she missed so much, could manipulate her into thinking that it was the sisters who were the Ultimate Evil and needed to be removed. No magic was needed to convince Billie of that.

[atlan]

Apr 23, 2009 13:40:59 GMT Terry said:

Apr 23, 2009 0:39:29 GMT atlan said:

I would say that Billie lucked out. The time line change saved her from the consequences of her actions. I wonder if Billie was actually insane. I mean the whole idea of killing the Halliwells for being "selfish" is crazy. Everyone knows(I hope) you just can't kill people you disapprove of.

It would have made more sense if Christy were mind controlling Billie somehow.

Of course you don't just usually kill people you disapprove of; but the story is different when said people are the prophecised most powerful witches of the world and their selfishness could cause the end of said world.

I don't think Christy manipulated Billie magically, the right words would do the trick, especially when Billie was first introduced to the sisters when they were avoiding the fight.

How exactly were they going to end the world? Especially since as you note in your second paragraph the COs wanted to retire more than anything else. The two points are in diametric opposition. IOW it makes no sense. You don't like the way the COs use their magic then let them retire!

And of course Billie is still murdering people who befriended her because of something they might someday do.

[Terry]

Apr 23, 2009 18:47:10 GMT atlan said:

Apr 23, 2009 13:40:59 GMT Terry said:

Of course you don't just usually kill people you disapprove of; but the story is different when said people are the prophecised most powerful witches of the world and their selfishness could cause the end of said world.

I don't think Christy manipulated Billie magically, the right words would do the trick, especially when Billie was first introduced to the sisters when they were avoiding the fight.

How exactly were they going to end the world? Especially since as you note in your second paragraph the COs wanted to retire more than anything else. The two points are in diametric opposition. IOW it makes no sense. You don't like the way the COs use their magic then let them retire!

And of course Billie is still murdering people who befriended her because of something they might someday do.

Wow.
This is not the debate. I never said the sisters were going to end the world: I was only saying that Christy needn't use magic to make Billie believe her -- she only needed to make Billie see that the more the Charmed Ones became selfish, the more dangerous they became for mankind (and this, even if I never personally believed it myself).

Yes, the sisters wanted to retire and stop fighting demons, but then Christy could well twist that and tell Billie they are faking it so they can let they new demon friends run around freely.

It's not diametrically opposed; it is a ... a chain reaction.

[atlan]

Apr 23, 2009 19:18:58 GMT Terry said:

Apr 23, 2009 18:47:10 GMT atlan said:

How exactly were they going to end the world? Especially since as you note in your second paragraph the COs wanted to retire more than anything else. The two points are in diametric opposition. IOW it makes no sense. You don't like the way the COs use their magic then let them retire!

And of course Billie is still murdering people who befriended her because of something they might someday do.

Wow.
This is not the debate. I never said the sisters were going to end the world: I was only saying that Christy needn't use magic to make Billie believe her -- she only needed to make Billie see that the more the Charmed Ones became selfish, the more dangerous they became for mankind (and this, even if I never personally believed it myself).

Yes, the sisters wanted to retire and stop fighting demons, but then Christy could well twist that and tell Billie they are faking it so they can let they new demon friends run around freely.

It's not diametrically opposed; it is a ... a chain reaction.

Well you brought the end the world comment up and since it wasn't even one of Christy's arguments it sounded like you were using it as a justification. Why bring it up otherwise?

As for the rest. Consider that Billie was convinced to murder people who had saved her several times, trained her at Billie's request, took her supposed terrorized sister in and let her virtually live at the manor where she could have seen any evil plots.

To do that betrayal requires Billie to be one of the following

Really stupid
Evil
Crazy
or mentally influenced/controlled.

The first three choices give a lot of well deserved fan hatred of the character. If she had been mentally controlled she would have been largely off the hook.

But hey whatever if Billie's fans don't even want her guilt reduced why should I bother? I just said mental control made more sense and stand by that.

[Terry]

Apr 24, 2009 23:56:00 GMT atlan said:

Well you brought the end the world comment up and since it wasn't even one of Christy's arguments it sounded like you were using it as a justification. Why bring it up otherwise?

As for the rest. Consider that Billie was convinced to murder people who had saved her several times, trained her at Billie's request, took her supposed terrorized sister in and let her virtually live at the manor where she could have seen any evil plots.

To do that betrayal requires Billie to be one of the following

Really stupid
Evil
Crazy
or mentally influenced/controlled.

The first three choices give a lot of well deserved fan hatred of the character. If she had been mentally controlled she would have been largely off the hook.

But hey whatever if Billie's fans don't even want her guilt reduced why should I bother? I just said mental control made more sense and stand by that.

Ooooooooookey. I'm not sure it's even worth replying, but I'll do anyway:

Billie's guilt? We Billie fans don't need to have her guilt reduced or whatever. We'd know that she felt guilty enough to protect the Charmed Ones in the end, killing her own damn sister. This even proves she's not evil, for despite all of their achievements, the Charmed Ones never had the heart to kill one of theirs when she were evil; they'd always try to save her, putting a bunch of innocents in possible danger all those times. While Billie, as soon as she realized Christy was the evil one, killed her on the spot.

To add a bit to her non-evil board: she has protected and saved every innocent she could; even trying to help the Charmed Ones themselves. Would someone evil do that? No. Evil kill innocents and do not help the Charmed Ones.

Guilt and evilness, check.

On to stupidity. See, this is the all-time argument of Billie-haters. It's to wonder who of them and Billie is stupid. Just because she's blond! Because didn't she invent that GPS scrying device? Takes a lot of cleverness, I think. Didn't she learn to use her powers and craft in just a few months?

Stupidity, check.

Crazy? Who's not? I remember Piper and Phoebe casting a love spell because they were desperate, but still they knew personal gain was prohibited. So maybe she is crazy, but she's young, and none of us can say we're perfect, not even Billie-haters.

Crazyness, check.

As for being mentally influenced: you know, that was the whole point of the rest of season 8. My whole speech earlier was just to point that out, as well as say that Christy needn't use magic to control Billie's feelings and reactions. We may not have seen the argument I wrote, but it's only logical that Christy would come to it at some point -- we never saw everything on screen, as far as I know But didn't that happen to the Charmed Ones, as well? Weren't they talked into joining the Avatars? Yes they were, and you can't call the Avatars good. Billie only followed her newly-found again sister, because she was family; like Leo was Piper's family and so she listened to him. Fortunately, they all listened to reason in the end. Which is what makes them all good.

Your arguments of "to murder people who had saved her several times, trained her at Billie's request, took her supposed terrorized sister in and let her virtually live at the manor" were the reasons why Billie did vanquish her own sister after all. Which proves she isn't:

Evil,
Stupid,
Crazy,
Or ungrateful.

So, yeah, all this to say that it is Billie-haters that need arguments to hate her, not Billie-fans that need arguments to like her. Those are probably the same that couldn't bear with the reckless Phoebe of the first seasons, since they're not that different

[atlan]

Sheesh, I don't have time or energy to reply to all of that, but I'll finish with this. Billie did commit multiple crimes which carry life sentences as I already demonstrated. Then she helped kill 2 of the COs got a time line change and a second chance. Only then did she finally figure it out. That was pretty damn stupid. She committed multiple felonies because her demon raised sister told her it was for the good. That's crazy or stupid no way around that. GPS, big deal look up the term idiot savant.

Billie haters don't claim to be perfect but we don't go around committing felonies based on really stupid arguments from long lost relatives. Which makes us (and almost everybody for that matter)a lot better than her.

And the show provided more than enough reason to hate her.

[Lexi]

On to stupidity. See, this is the all-time argument of Billie-haters. It's to wonder who of them and Billie is stupid. Just because she's blond! Because didn't she invent that GPS scrying device? Takes a lot of cleverness, I think. Didn't she learn to use her powers and craft in just a few months?

That definitely proves that Billie had some brains, but it doesn't mean that she had common sense. But that's not the argument here I just wanted to say that smart people do do stupid things.

Anyway, the way I looked at Billie and Christy, neither of them were truely evil. Neither had the power to blink - which would have made them warlocks - and neither of them had actually hurt an innocent (that I can remember anyway). They did by putting Paige in her dreams, but that was a bi-product of Christy showing Billie what the Charmed Ones wanted, rather than going out to hurt an innocent on purpose. They let Paige out of her dreams when they realised what was happening.

Christy was manipulated from a young age and just didn't really know the difference between right and wrong. Billie, on the other hand, was just so happy to have her sister back in her life that she was willing to look past everything that she *knew* was right and just believe what her sister was telling her. It wasn't stupidity, it wasn't evil, it wasn't craziness. It was that unconditional love between sisters and that want to have her back in her life. Yes, in the end she killed her sister (which I don't think they should have done, I think they should have found a way to save Christy) but the guilt she felt (albeit very bad acting) was obvious.

I didn't really like Billie, but that was because I didn't really like S8. It felt like they were taking it away from the COs, IMHO, and letting the COs live on with their selfish lives but I wouldn't go as far to say Billie was anything but just so happy to have her sister back.

[Phoenixlighter]

Billie did commit multiple crimes which carry life sentences as I already demonstrated. Then she helped kill 2 of the COs got a time line change and a second chance.

That was just an overall poor reply on your end and I'm not even being biased. Can you keep in mind that Piper, Phoebe, and Paige also succeeded in killing Christy, prepared to kill Billie as well. You can't pass blame and completely withdraw from attacking the CO's because you're arguing on their behalf. In a debate, your side can't be guilty of the same crime. Long-lost or not, the CO's should very well understand how important a sister is to another, whatever the circumstances may be.

[atlan]

Apr 28, 2009 17:12:12 GMT Phoenixlighter said:

Billie did commit multiple crimes which carry life sentences as I already demonstrated. Then she helped kill 2 of the COs got a time line change and a second chance.

That was just an overall poor reply on your end and I'm not even being biased. Can you keep in mind that Piper, Phoebe, and Paige also succeeded in killing Christy, prepared to kill Billie as well. You can't pass blame and completely withdraw from attacking the CO's because you're arguing on their behalf. In a debate, your side can't be guilty of the same crime. Long-lost or not, the CO's should very well understand how important a sister is to another, whatever the circumstances may be.

You most certainly are being biased. Murder vs self defense it's a world of difference. Moreover it was a case of the Jenkins

KOing the COs which allowed a Darklighter to kill Paige's charge

Casting a spell on them so they would not help the magical critters and then ambushing them in the manor and trying to kill them then.

The kidnapping of Wyatt.

Then the showdowns at the manor where both sides were expecting enemies.


This doesn't even take into account Christie's plotting to turn Billie and murder the COs, which of course makes things worse.

You make it sound like a random old west gunfight.

In fact there was a long pattern of crime and aggression by the Jenkins against the COs.

And you claim not to be biased? Not biased when you leave out most of the facts? Oh please!