Charmed Debates

[Astral Martin]

I haven't been on in a while so I wanted to do a little something...

I want to see what everybody's opinion is on Charmed topics.

So a question I want to bring up is who would you prefer: Wyatt or Melinda. As we all know, Piper had a little girl when she went to the future. But as she said, that was a future where Prue was still alive and witches was burned at the stake. But some feel that Melinda should have still been born regardless. Whats your view?

[Reyn]

Melinda. Without a shadow of a doubt.

I never liked Wyatt. He just annoyed me to no end. As a toddler and later as a man. All he did was wine and misbehave. In his todler form, he'd be a nasty little so and so, and then he'd do something cute like chew on the ear of his teddy and the audience was supposed to coo and forgive him his transgressions. Not me. I found most of the plots he was involved in silly and irritating. In fact, my enjoyment of the show plummeted when they began focusing more and more on his 'character.'

I would have prefered that Wyatt never existed and that Melinda was Piper's first born. Melinda I could at least tolerate.

[Astral Martin]

Me, I would be happy either way. But the thing is, I think they made Wyatt too powerful, giving him all of these wondrous powers that surpass the power of three. But I think I know what happened. A lot of people are saying that the departure of Prue and CM Burge left the show male centered with the reign of Brad Kern. So Melinda became Wyatt. But here's where he slipped up: In the season 1 episode, "The truth is out there and it hurts." Prue said to Andy and I quote "If they are girls then yes." So even if Wyatt and Chris were born, they still shouldn't have had any powers. But if i had to choose, i would say Melinda as well...

[Phoenixlighter]

But here's where he slipped up: In the season 1 episode, "The truth is out there and it hurts." Prue said to Andy and I quote "If they are girls then yes." So even if Wyatt and Chris were born, they still shouldn't have had any powers.

I don't even like to consider that a slip-up. More of Prue being, lack of a better word, ignorant to the idea that male witches could be born on the sole fact that it was just a line of women. Notice, she comes to help Max in the same season (male witch) and she was just trying to make some sense of it to console Andy, I think. She was a freshman, she didn't know all the rules that applied.

I frankly would've preferred Melinda on a less powerful scale. This whole Twice-Blessed crap got out of hand to the point where I will never take a fan fic serious that has Wyatt in it because, "What can't he do?" I believe in toning his abilities down and not making him out to be the Grand Magic Dude the writers made him out to be. They certainly should've introduced some method of toning him down, such as him getting sick or something because of a power overdose or whatever. Idk.

I just like the idea of Melinda better. Piper certainly wanted her and sure she may have loved him the same, but I think mental-wise, she always thought about Melinda and how life could've been different if she had her little girl instead. I would've preferred if they kept the tradition of just girls. I think Kern just wanted to shake things up and said, "Let's shock them with a boy." And sure, you shocked us, but it wasn't OMG! and the only real storyline it opened up was Grams getting pissed. That's all. So to change Melinda to a boy to pursue that one idea was simply retarded and a great reflection of the producer.

[Jake]

I think I would've preferred Piper to have Melinda in Season 5 and then in Season 6 the Chris storyline, Idk why but that would've made me like both seasons more as it shows the sister/brother dynamic. I sometimes think Wyatt should've never been introduced into the series and if he was let's him take Melinda's place as youngest and weakest haha.

[Stephen92]

I also would have prefered Melinda as opposed to Wyatt, i disliked that from season 5 onwards everything was pretty much Wyatt based and it sorta took away the whole thing about the show being about the charmed ones and not their children. but i guess they thought that having Wyatt this all powerful first born SON of a charmed one might bring up ratings which i'm sure never happened. i did like Grams reaction to him though.

[Deleted]

I also would've prefered Melinda for all the reasons mentioned, although with Piper's big sister and best friend so recently dead, I would've prefered her being Prudence Melinda, although they could still call her Melinda. I remember Melinda Warren seeing a whole long line of *DAUGHTERS* not sons. Everything that is said in the earlier seasons says that the Warren line is a matriarchal line, one where powers go from mother to daughter, not to son. Even the fact that Grams had a brother who didn't have powers says so. That's what Prue meant...she meant the Warrens/Halliwells, not witches in general. Yes, she could have sons who would be witches, but they wouldn't have powers like her and her sisters.

I didn't mind Chris' powers (I minded Chris PLENTY--can't stand the lying, whining, murdering brat who was the worst thing that happened to Charmed, much more than Wyatt or Billie & Christy--but that's a different debate...) because they reflected his father's (Leo had TK...at least in Season One...and could orb), but all of those Twice-Blessed powers that Wyatt had, especially giving him his own private prophecy... *shakes head in disgust* If that's the case, wouldn't Phoebe have read that in the Book of Shadows and wouldn't she have told her sisters that one of them was prophesied to have this wonderful, powerful kid, even more powerful than the Power of Three?

I should mention that had Prudence Melinda been the Twice-Blessed Child with more powers than the Power of Three, I would've hated her as much as I hate Wyatt, the way I hate any fic that show the kids more powerful than their mothers.

So I guess I wouldn't have minded Wyatt (since it makes sense that the future was changed with Prue's death) if he had had powers like Chris, like his father, but not as the Twice-Blessed Child, or if they'd done Season 6 the way I think it was originally supposed to have been done...with Chris as the younger, jealous, evil brother, out to destoy the Twice-Blessed Child who was more loved than him and the father who loved the Twice-Blessed Child more than him, allowing the Titans to remain the Big Bad in the future, not Wyatt.

[Astral Martin]

When someone mentioned Chris, I had to say something:

HATE HIM! HATE HIM! He is one of...no THE WORST character that Charmed had. Brad Kern obviously thought that the show needed more men. Don't get me wrong, I like Drew Fuller; good actor on Army Wives. I just hate Chris! Did he even get a punishment for killing 3 Valkyries? And did we even get so much as a sorry? I think not! My God its like he got out of the wrong side of bed every single day of his life!

Back to Wyatt: I have to admit, I do like the idea for a male witch. Just not for the Halliwell line. That's why the Max episode and the firestarter episodes are some of my favorites. And as much as i wanted to HATE Wyatt, he was just cute as a button. But that whole idea of Wyatt getting sick and losing some of his powers would be pretty clever...

[Deleted]

Oh, I don't mind the idea of male witches, even male witches with powers like Max...just not within the Warren/Halliwell line. That was an abomination that should not have been allowed. Ditto for Henry Jr, who like his father should have no powers--be a witch, yes, have powers, no. Chris and Wyatt having powers like their dad, sure. Being witches like their mother, sure. Having powers like their mothers or being more powerful than their mother, no.

As far as what you said about Chris, I agree totally. For the Halliwells to totally accept and love him just because he was the son of versions of them who were probably as totally different as the versions of them that that they saw in "Morality Bites" made absolutely no sense at all. He wasn't their son/nephew...their son/nephew hadn't even been born.

The main reason why I hate Chris is that he taught the sisters that "Wrong Things Done for the Right Reasons Are OK". That's what made it OK for Paige and Phoebe to murder Rick. It's what made it OK for them to contemplate murdering Billie and Christy when Billie and Christy weren't demons; they were witches just like the sisters. Had the sisters vanquished them, they would've been commiting first-degree murder. And it wasn't self-defense...planning to murder someone before they murder you is *not* self-defense, it's first-degree murder. They should've left that sort of punishment to the Elders. But after Chris made Leo make the sisters goddesses, the sisters always thought they had the power to know who was good and who was evil and they were judge, jury and executioner.

I truly think that had the sisters truly survived Kill Billie Vol 2 (and I don't think they did; I think Forever Charmed is just Piper's delusion as she dies) then they are still headed for the pyre of Morality Bites and Wyatt will still turn evil...nothing happened in any of the last three seasons to make me think otherwise. And then Chris will go back in time and you'll have a time-loop that will last forever.

[Jake]

I personally don't have a problem with Chris Halliwell, but Adult Chris was of course annoying and did kill Valkyries just to keep a secret, which I'm surprised was never a big factor in the season.

I also have no problem, with the Charmed Ones's having sons that have powers similar to both parents, as it wouldn't make sense how they just inherited their father's powers. I see nothing wrong with that, except the fact that they did a continuity error with Melinda Warren she sees many daughters. But even that doesn't mean they all had to be daughters, she said she saw 'many' daughters, so that could just mean there are more daughters than sons, which in Forever Charmed is true. Another thing with that is that Destiny does change as well, like Prue dying.

I didn't really have a problem with the sisters killing Billie and Christy. As that is what it was coming down to. If the sisters just kept trying to avoid killing them by trying to turn them back to good they would've surely died. So it was ultimately a battle to the death. I also think that even if Chris didn't come from the future they still would've tried to kill Christy and Billie, and I also disagree he taught him "the wrong thing done for the right reason is OK". If anything that was Gideon's motto.

[Astral Martin]

Exactly! Bad things done for good reasons are still bad, Chris and Gideon! Trying to kill a toddler! Not cool! As for Billie and Christy, I really don't know what to tell you. On one hand, if they had really killed them, it would have been first degree murder. But on the other hand, Billie and Christy was planning to kill them first. So in a way, both of you are sorta right

BTW: the only reason Chris got away with lying and killing is because all of the girls went total gaa gaa over him. Trust me, if he had looked like the Source, he would have had 3 episodes, 5 tops..

[Jake]

The first degree murder thing is kinda thrown out the window too though. Because can the Charmed Ones really follow all the laws of the USA? Christy also isn't just a mortal but a witch, and part of the Ultimate Power, and vice versa for Billie and Christy's reasons. So in Charmedverse it might not be considered that.

[Deleted]

They sure should follow those rules! They're still Americans and should not be put above the law or put themselves above the law! Vanquishing demons and warlocks and other baddies is one thing. Vanquishing fellow witches is something totally different. And since Billie was Paige's charge, she was most definitely a witch and since Christy never tried to steal the sisters' powers, she had yet to become a warlock--indeed as a small child kidnapped by demon, she was the Ultimate Innocent, but naturally, the sisters and Kern never thought about that.

Especially because they weren't truly doing it in self-defense or to protect innocents. They were doing it so Piper could get her little errand boy back.

[The Matriarch]

In all honesty, even though I love both the boys & I grew used to them but when Wyatt was born, I can't explain the disappointment I felt when he was a boy. I was expecting little Melinda, not Wyatt. What also bugged me is that everyone just accepted Wyatt, they had been expecting to meet little Melinda & suddenly a boy pops out & no one questions it? Piper doesn't feel a little disappointed? It feels like it was just swept under the rug & I hate Kern for suddenly making Charmed male dominant with Wyatt being the Twice Blessed Child, yeah fine, make him that but don't you dare say he's more powerful than the Power of Three. There is no prophecy that holds more ground than the Charmed prophecy & I seriously think Connie Burge is ashamed of what he did to her beloved creation.

What's wrong with keeping the magic in the female line? Was Kern really that threatened or something? Yes, there can be male witches out there in the world but I think it would have made the Halliwells more unique in the sense that only the women in the line received powers.

So, beyond all this, I would still have chosen Piper to have Melinda like it was in the future. I can't see Prue dying having such a profound effect on the family line & other future happenings.

[Deleted]

You have some great points here, Rory! Wouldn't it really have been great to find out that the true Twice-Blessed Child was indeed Prudence Melinda, who wasn't born, and that the child who *was* born was indeed the Phoetus, planted in Piper after the Seer exploded, since we found out that Piper was pregnant right after that? That's what I would've prefered Wyatt being.

[Astral Martin]

There are two things that I want to bring up!

"Piper's little errand boy...": I could not agree with you more! There is a reason why Leo was my favorite character. Not because he was the leading male role. But he was just generally a good guy from seasons 1-5. Then Kern wanted him abducted by Valkyries which changed his whole persona. Do you really think that Leo from season 1 would KILL 2 Valkyries. He kind of came back near the end of season 6 but then he went all koo koo for coco charmed with the green heads and the avatars. I mean really. And in season 8, Piper had very little respect for him, always sending him to pick up the boys and buy candy corn! I totally lost my respect for him and Leo did lose his way.

"I can't see Prue dying having such a profound effect on the family line & other future happenings." - Matriarch

Kern wanted dynamics to change in the show: baby to middle, middle to oldest and only to baby. But some people really didn't understand what happened after season 4. Phoebe had how many boyfriends in the show? About what 5? Sometimes Piper got really whiny. And they all became male dependent. Sometimes I think things would change if Prue still lived.

[Lexi]

Ok, I thought since I found this thread I'd put my two cents in.

First of all, I was majorly disappointed with Wyatt rather than Melinda. I really wanted Melinda, she was so cute in the future that Prue, Piper and Phoebe went to. But I also liked Chris, not just because it was Drew Fuller, but also because his character actually had some depth. Yes, he killed three Valkyries and God knows what else, but just a glimpse into the future that he came from, I began to question what he had to do there to survive. I know it was wrong and I never forgave him for it, especially when there was nothing said about it, but I got that he would have been stuck in a "do-I-don't-I" situation and stuggling to deal with how to live in a world not so dark. There was regret in his eyes as he did it and he did save the cop's life - at least I assume the cop was saved.

Anyway, off the topic I wanted to say. If Melinda was born then it would have made it more of a shock that Chris was Piper's son, which would have been better. When I watched season 6 and the revelation came out, I was just like "ok, another boy" but if Piper had Melinda I would have been like "a boy in the Halliwell line? Interesting twist" sort of thing. It would have been better.

The problem with the show was that Connie left. She should have stayed and fought against all the changes. I understand that she couldn't really do it but its a shame since it started off being about three sisters who just happen to be witches and had a whole family dynamic and "save the innocents" to it. All of a sudden, some big-headed brute took over and it was all about how many powers can we get in, lets put the girls in the shortest dresses we can. It became about three witches who just happen to be sisters. Once Shannen left, it didn't really seem to have the family dynamic to it anymore. And then it was more about the males than the females and the Charmed Ones were no longer the most powerful witches known. Wyatt came along and he alone was more powerful that the Charmed Ones put together, and then there was Billie and Christy. Grrr.

Ok *rant over* that's my two cents for now. I do have a lot more lol

[Reyn]

I agree with you, Lexi. When Constance left and Kern took over, there were a lot of changes that I didn't like. And as you mention, Charmed started feeling like a show about witches who happen to be sisters, rather than the opposite, which was Constance's original idea. I prefered it when the sisters had a human face - when we got to see them doing normal things in their normal lives - rather than the whole 'demons, powers and possession' which seemed to dominate the later seasons.

I also disliked the change from 'Charmed Ones: The ultimate protectors of the innocent' to 'Charmed Ones: Here until someone more powerful comes along.' The show completely changed focus, so much that the end season hardly resembled the first.

But back to topic - Melinda should have been the child Piper had instead of Wyatt.

[temporalcombustion]

I like Wyatt but like everybody else said, I didn't like the "twice blessed child" thing. I asked myself the same question as Grams did when she asked Piper "what went wrong?" because I expected Melinda too instead of Wyatt.
Chris is oke, his storyline was interesting and I liked that he only had two powers.

[atlan]

About Billie and Christy if you want to all of a sudden judge them as mortals (although that did not apply to other evil witches like Tuatha(in season2) and the Wicked Witch in season 5) then

They had already attacked the Charmed Ones in The Jung and the Restless allowing a darklighter to kill Paige's charge. As mortals then they were accessories to murder. Can you say life in prison?

They tricked and kidnapped Wyatt later. Can you say life in prison again?

Then they were trying to kill the Charmed Ones. If the Charmed Ones kill them it's self defense all the way. By mortal standards no court would have convicted the CO's and surviving Jenkins ie Billie should have served a double life sentence in prison for their mortal crimes.

Of course if you just go by S2 established continuity they should be vanquished.